Igniting Intimacy in the empty nest - E64

Stephanie Flood  0:00  
When I talk to couples about sex, I talk about penis, vagina, you're you're doing the things to make baby. Intimacy is all the other stuff. Well, what's the lead up to some touching and some nakedness? How are we talking to each other about it? How do we make each other feel about it?

Clancy Denton  0:19  
This is the loud quiet living the empty nest. Welcome

Rick Denton  0:23  
back to the loud quiet. Everyone you can tell today's going to be incredibly different, as episode 64 is going to be something that we haven't done in quite a while. We've got a guest on the show today, and I know that Clancy and I are very excited about this one. I guarantee those of you that are listening and watching, you're going to be excited about this one as well. Today we get the chance to talk with Stephanie flood coming to us from Nashville, Tennessee today. Hello, Stephanie.

Stephanie Flood  0:53  
Hey guys, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, and

Rick Denton  0:56  
we're particularly excited about this because this is one of those topics that is a challenging one for folks at times, right? So Stephanie is a relationship and intimacy expert, and a lot of us know what that is also wrapped up in, and we will certainly be getting into topics like that as well. Stephanie has had years of practice in this field. Stephanie has talked with 1000s of couples about relationship and intimacy, helping them achieve what is such an important part of staying connected in any sort of coupled relationship, and for us especially, and for listeners of the loud quiet and viewers of the loud quiet, especially in those empty nest years so Stephanie, I want to start with just of all the things that you could have chosen to do with your life, right? You know you're sitting there in fourth grade class, I have to imagine that the answer to the question that a teacher asked of what do you want to do when you grow up was not relationship and intimacy experts. So how did you choose to go into this field.

Stephanie Flood  2:02  
So what a great question. And again, thank you guys so much for having me. I am in fourth grade. I believe I was, I was pretty strongly set on being an actress, actually, and so and I do actually have a degree in theater arts and and then my husband, who, at the time, we got married pretty young, and so as soon as I had that degree, he was like, that's cute. You're going to need a, like, a real degree. And actually, quite a few years went by, and I was not an actress at all, and I ended up with master's degree in counseling psychology, and decided right in the when I was in grad school doing internships, I really enjoyed being with couples. They were the most interesting to me, because they have a lot to say typically. And then it it sort of general, gently morphed into intimacy in relationships, and the intimacy thing was in part, having to do with just some of the background that I had. I grew up in a really conservative family. I got some very interesting messaging about sex. I had to sign a purity pledge and place it on the White House line for Bill Clinton. Very confusing time,

Rick Denton  3:26  
interesting combination,

Stephanie Flood  3:27  
very strange. So I just thought to myself, like most you know, a lot of us, you know, had parents for better for worse, that had all kinds of different ideas, expectations. Maybe they didn't say anything about intimacy, and then we all jumped into marriage and long term relationships, and we're sort of left to our own devices. And turns it out that, you know, couples tend to come from very different backgrounds and very different ideas about that topic, and they tend to fight about it a lot. So it was, it was, that was the decision, and that's how it sort of got going. And here we are, 16 years later.

Clancy Denton  4:07  
Can you give us a little insight? Explain to us what the difference is between intimacy and sex? Because growing up, it was just sex, and now intimacy has been brought into it. So can you explain to us what the difference is between those two?

Stephanie Flood  4:23  
Yeah, so you know, when I talk to couples about sex, I talk about penis, vagina, straight intercourse, basically, you're you're doing the things to make baby. Intimacy, in my opinion, is all the other stuff that goes into how do I want to get to the point of penis and vagina? Or maybe we don't even like that, and we just want to do some other things that help us feel close that is sexual in nature, but isn't, you know, the full shebang. So that's how I kind of differentiate the. To. And when I look at intimacy, I look at, well, what's the lead up to some touching and some and some nakedness? What's like? How are we talking to each other about it? How do we make each other feel about it like? And that, when you've got that a strong foundation in that, I think couples have a much, much better sexual relationship.

Rick Denton  5:24  
Yeah, as you define it that way. And we've heard definitions around that. We've heard kind of distinction around that. But I kind of like how there's the wrapper the beginning that sort of leads to the other in that perspective. You Clancy were talking about how we'd heard the word sex growing up. And I think part of it is, I'm sitting there thinking, Well, you know, a lot of it, we had some conservative upbringing as well. And I don't know how often this is a even, would hear the word sex or that. How did that like, that conservative upbringing that you're describing, Stephanie influence, sort of your perspective towards relationship, intimacy and sex, and then how you're using that to advise people today?

Stephanie Flood  6:06  
Yeah, so growing up, like, coming out of that conservative background, you know, I think the majority of what I was hearing was from my mom and, you know, and very matter of fact, she, she's a nurse, so it was, you know, here's, here's where this goes, here's where this goes. And if you do this without a goalie, you're going to get pregnant and don't get pregnant. And I, you know, at the time, I had a high school boyfriend, when this purity pledge went down, I think they were very, very concerned that I was going to do the things. And so my mom was probably a little bit more like, here's what happens if you do this kind of deal. I think she was scared, really and truly my dad, my dad is much older, and I think he wanted nothing to do with the conversation whatsoever. And to this day, I'm pretty sure he's convinced that the four children that I have just magically appeared. He does not want to have anything to do with that. So I think, you know what? For a lot of people, they kind of maybe got the birds and the bees thing. They probably got something in school that sort of said, here's the parts, here's where they go the end. Yeah, or for no one ever, ever, ever talk to me about, like, well, you know, all the other things that like tend to lead up to sex. Like, you know, the emotional part. Are you connected to this person? Do you care about this person? Do you you know? Do you want the best for this person? How do you say hey, do you like it if I touch you here, or do you like it if I touch you here? Those conversations, for sure, were not happening anytime in my teenage, young adult upbringing whatsoever, and so I think, especially for our generation, that we just sort of missed that entire part of the conversation. And again, we're left to figure it out on our own with our partner, who also probably had, you know, a birds and the bees conversation, and that was it.

Rick Denton  8:21  
So, okay, let's stay in that space, because you're talking about you even laughed about kind of your dad didn't even want to talk about that, right? And there's sex, intimacy, all of that can be incredibly difficult conversation to have, even inside of a loving couple relationship. So let's get real tactical here. When you're talking to couples, and you know that they need to be having those conversations, how do you tell how is the best way to initiate a conversation about sex with your partner?

Stephanie Flood  8:52  
So I almost typically start with a female because she tends to be kind of the leader, for the most part, on the who, what, when, where and how, the most. So we kind of start with her, and we walk through a process of really getting to know her. What are her What have kind of been her experiences? What does she sort of feel and think, you know what, what messaging was given to her. Again, for a lot of women, it's, you know, sexist. It's mostly for your male partner. You know, you can smile and or tell them that you have a headache. You know? You know that there. I think the younger generations, quite honestly, are much better about, like, what they want, what they like, and all things. But pretty much anybody 35 and older is, you know, the again, the messaging was, this isn't really for you. This is for your, again, your male partner. So we kind of start with heart, and we get that going, and we get that talking about, like, yeah, what? What are the some of. Things that you really like. Do you really like kissing? Do you really want him to, you know, be romantic. Do you not care what sort of things, you know, what sort of things make you really uncomfortable? Um, that's a big one. And what can he do to help you feel more comfortable? So we start there, then we flip to the guy side. Now most, most, and this is generally generalizing, but most men come into this and they're just basically like, I just wanted to want me. If she just wanted me, that would be really great. She was super fun when she was 28 now she's just like, can't wait for me. That's that's kind of the perspective that men, when we dig in a little deeper, we get in, we start for men, start to get into, okay, well, what does feel good for you? What do you know? What does it mean for you to have her want you. What does that really look like? Does it mean that she's, you know, being affectionate with you by hugging, kissing, touching, cuddling all day long. Is it, you know that she is actually the one to initiate sex? Is it that she's coming up with ideas of things that may feel really good, or asking you questions about what makes you feel good. Most men, when I start on down that line, they can quickly jump in and be like, This is what I like. This is what I, you know, really want. But for the most part, most men are just like, I just really want her to want me like I miss her. That's big one, um, you know, especially after kids, most men will say, like, I just miss my wife, like I want her back.

Rick Denton  11:44  
Yeah, I'm sitting here. I mean, when I think of and I think of times that have been like that in our life, right? You know that I've felt that sort of sensation of, I just want her to want me. And there's that it's a cheap trick that song that starts with, I want you to want me. Like it. There's a reason why it's even a cliche in music, because there's a lot of truth to that, and I can absolutely see that. So

Clancy Denton  12:06  
you brought up, you know, having the kids, and yes, I know that is probably a time in lives when, and I know we experience it too, that sex was not the forefront of my mind because I've had children hanging off of me all day. What about going like perimenopause, into menopause? How? How? What do you give those women tips? Or, how can we get back into it if we've lost that desire again?

Stephanie Flood  12:36  
Yeah, so we, I mean, as females, we really get to ride the roller coaster, because there's like that fun phase of our life that is like, yay. We're not ready to have kids, you know, we can do things then once those babies start happening. And like you said that, I mean, the most women in that, you know, under five crew are completely and totally touched out. And so when you have a tiny human that is hanging on you, whether or not you're breastfeeding or not, just like needing to be picked up and needing to be cuddled by the time your male partner is coming in, you are like, if you get near me, I will throw punch you like doing so you need to, and usually what happens for a lot of us is, like, we got one kid, and then we decide, like, we should do another one. So we got like, six, eight years of that, where it's a bit of a dry spell, and by that point, we're probably in our late ish 30s, so it's a great time. And if you could get back on track around then a lot of us did not. So we move into 40s, and then the joy, like you said, of pre menopause and menopause, and basically, you know, I tell people all the time, this is kind of the basic version of this, but for women like, the desire to have sex is really, truly about making a baby. And so it is, you know, it is once you get to menopause, in that point in time, you are looking at like, Well, I'm not capable of having baby anymore. So why would I do the things like, the best thing for women, in my opinion, to do around that time is to get re, kind of re comfortable and like, what things actually do feel really good. What do I like and enjoy doing with him? What are some sexual things that I like and what are some non sexual things that I like, and making it a very routine, like habit of like, am I kissing him every day? Am I hugging him? Am I, you know, asking him to take shower with me? Am I, you know, trying to get into bed and, you know. Not want to fall asleep right away kind of thing, so that you are being more mindful of, like, I want this to keep going, and that way you have a positive memory of, oh, sex does feel good. I enjoy this. You know, this is something that's good for us. This makes him a very happy human, which actually makes my life better when he is a happy human. That's how we get things going. I will say that for most women in their 40s, and I will preach this to the end, is go get your hormones checked by a specialist, because most, most general doctors, is as wonderful that they'll tell you, you're totally fine and this is normal, which it is, but there's a lot they can do hormonally wise to help, like, make it less, less drastic. Can

Rick Denton  15:51  
I were you about to ask something? Well, I

Clancy Denton  15:54  
just you brought up an interesting thing, which made me think, have you seen a shift now that people are working from home, and sometimes both spouses are working from home. Have you seen a shift in when you just said, Have I kissed him today? Well, sometimes when he's working from home, no, because he's been here all day, he didn't leave, he didn't come back. So that, can you speak to that. Oh,

Stephanie Flood  16:21  
my goodness gracious. So when the pandemic happened, we were living in California at the time, and I thought for sure that my practice was gonna be done. Like I was, like, there I was seeing people in an office, and that was all the things. And my it was not done. My practice went bananas. I have never been more busy in my entire career than I was during 2020, and 2021, and it turns out that when you are stuck in the house with your partner, holy smokes, do things get real heated real quick, because men are like, I'm in the cave with my woman all the time. I can touch her. And again, women are like, what is happening? And I think now like, and this, I mean, this happened too. It was just absolutely bananas. What happened? I think now that we're like, a little bit more comfortable with it, both my husband and I, actually we, we both work from home. Now you you have to be more mindful of the fact that, like, yeah, he might not be going, like, to the office every day, or she might not be leaving to go, like, you know, run errands and or go to the officer shelf, like, so again, what routines can you get into just on the daily like, are we making sure, like, if I make him a cup of coffee, that I'm giving him a hug, like, with it? Am I making sure that I say I love you, like, a couple times a day? Am I making sure that when we go to bed like I'm saying good night, and I'm giving it a kiss and a hug, good night, and incorporating just those routines again creates such a closeness that makes us feel good. And the best way I can tell you is think about it with your like, with your tiny humans, like the teenagers don't count right now, because they don't want anything to do with us, but the tiny humans, like, I would never not like, hug and kiss my five year old Good night. Like it just wouldn't occur to me not to do that. Like, right? You put them in bed, you say goodnight. We should still do that with our with our partner, with our spouse. Like it's the same comfort, it's the same level of like, I care about you. I want you to, you know, sleep well. I want, I want you to know that I love you.

Rick Denton  18:48  
You. You said something there that it caught my ears, and you talked about the routine. And I've, I've heard we've experienced, and I've heard that, you know people talk about, but that's one of the things that starts to kill some of the fire is the routine. What's your guidance to couples when it comes to balancing those routine elements and the the inspired and the improv elements of intimacy and sex? So

Stephanie Flood  19:16  
you guys were just telling me about something really cool that you did, that you went to New Orleans and you went on the trip, and I just cannot recommend that enough for couples. If the routine is, you know, day in and day out, and we're making sure that we're putting those little pieces together, then what we want to do is add some fun go do fun things with each other. Go play mini golf. Like, you know when, like, without your children there. Go, do you know? Go bowling. Go, like, go out to dinner at a restaurant, like, Have you been to Ethiopian food? Do either one of you know that you like it or actually can't stand it? Like getting yourself to and pushing yourself in small increments. And trips are great, but I totally understand that not all of us can just take off for the weekend, but creating more of those spontaneity kinds of moments in the routine is what's going to help then foster like, oh, well, maybe, you know, if we go do this thing, like, you know, that created some extra level of excitement, or maybe got us talking about, you know, because the kids weren't around, like, oh, you know, I, I would really like to try this toy, or I would really love it if you did this thing. Or could we go on a trip? And how can we plan that? And when you get out of the day to day routine to go do little fun things, then you start thinking bigger and bigger.

Rick Denton  20:47  
There's something that I do want to actually kind of really get specific with you about, because I feel like Clancy and I do a good job of talking. And even with us, it can be difficult for us to talk about sex, what we like, what we don't like, get into that conversation, because it's the initiation of that conversation that can be so tricky, so kind of almost real tactical. How would you guide couples us or others in the empty nest of how do you get into that conversation?

Stephanie Flood  21:20  
So the best way, I think, and possibly the most natural way, is, you know, most of us are watching some sort of television at some point in our evening routine. Usually there is almost always in in pretty much anything that you are watching, somebody is doing something that could be intriguing, whether you like it or think it's hot or sexy, or you're like, sweet God, it's there in from commercials to shows, it Is there. So in my mind, that's actually the easiest place to sort of tiptoe into that conversation. So if you see something, bring it up to your spouse. And I always want to go with and try and teach couples about curiosity. I want to be curious about my partner. I want to be curious about their experiences, and I want to be curious about their answers. So when we approach each other with curiosity, the judgment is usually lessened, and that's what we're most worried about, right? We're going to worry like, Oh, God, I said I like this thing, and now he's going to think, I'm like, you know, whatever. So when we approach with curiosity, so say, we're watching a show, and something comes on, and you kind of can look at your spouse and be like, well, would that be something you would like? Or, you know, what do you think of? That very subtle, very easy, and that is a great bridge to having a more in depth conversation about, like, oh, I would love that. Or, and you guys, and really and truly, you can, you can go deep for sure, like, if you see something right, like, really at out of box, and you're like, you know, what do you think about that? What does that mean to you? Is that, you know, does that push up against, like, your moral values? Does that? Does that seem exciting for them, but maybe not for us? That is the best way to do it.

Clancy Denton  23:28  
I really, I really like that because it's also you have a distraction. It's not like you're sitting down across from each other and, okay, let's talk about sex and intimacy. But I like that because it's, well, yeah, it's got something distracting that then, and

Rick Denton  23:43  
it's the trigger to help you get into it. Yeah, Stephanie, I really like that because of the fact that there can be that time, let's say that you haven't had sex for a long time. And then there's the awkwardness of not having that or you're not going to, won't necessarily have that conversation, sitting in bed together or over a meal, sometimes sitting at the dinner table. How your peas? Yeah, you know, I think this would be fun to try the TV idea is a good trick. Now, I don't know, peas might be sexy to someone, so that could be a trigger as well, but I the idea of using something Stephanie makes a lot

Stephanie Flood  24:13  
of sense. Yeah, I will only say this, though, as a as the word of warning, because it just happened to happen in one of with a client at one point in time, in my practice, please do not send your partner clips of pornography. They will not take it well. They do not enjoy it. You are not going to receive you are not going to receive a good response if you do that.

Rick Denton  24:42  
Yeah, I can see how that might indicate

Stephanie Flood  24:44  
it does not play well. It does not play the same as watching an episode of Yellowstone.

Clancy Denton  24:51  
So what advice would you give? When have you seen or when have couples let you know that it's time to. Get help from an intimacy, relationship coach, therapist.

Stephanie Flood  25:04  
You know what? That's really one of the toughest pieces to it, because most people end up in my office, and others like myself in our office, because the house is on fire, which means that things are really, really rock bottom bad, and that, you know, when it doesn't always happen that way, but it is very that is, that is typically what we see when you when you get to the therapist office, is that, like, it's been years, it's been there's maybe been affairs that have happened. There's been just extra level of stuff that has gone on that could have really been repaired way long before. But we ignore. We get busy. We we just, you know, all all the things, all the reasons why we we procrastinate. You know, we put it off. I will tell you that people tell me all the time that they don't have time to be intimate with their partner. That is for sure. The number one thing that I hear is we don't have time. Okay, well, let's like, let's figure out how to make time. And I try to give couples a lot of suggestions of out of the box, places, times like, you know, and really trying to normalize a bit of like, we are not talking like two hours of your you know, every other day we're talking probably about 12 to 15 minutes, start to finish. So, you know, when we put it in that perspective, that helps couples be like, oh, you know, that's actually kind of true. And you know, when, when is a great time for a lot of couples with younger kids, I for sure say Sunday mornings. You know, it's okay to let your kiddo watch some cartoons and have some cereal and, you know, let mom and dad, like, have few minutes to themselves. It's they will not die, I promise. So, yeah, that's, that's usually when people like come to me, is when, when the house is on fire. And again, we really want to work on, if we're building these routines, if we're being mindful about intimacy and how it's important and why it's important for us individually. What does it mean, like, not just for us as a couple, but what does it mean for us as a human? What does it mean for me as a woman, to want to be wanted to feel sexual, and why is that important to me? And really and truly, it's our energy. It's it's a it's the life of why we are actually here. And, you know, again, back to some of those basics. Like, in my opinion, like, you know, we were here to reproduce. It's not very exciting. We're

Rick Denton  27:53  
here to keep the species going. Yeah, yeah, that is, you know, some of those the stories there about, I remember that when we had our youngers, that one of the things we were very diligent about getting kids off to bed, and that left some of the night, night elements. You know, empty nesters have a lot more time you do on their hands. What is it that you're seeing in the empty nest obviously, you're not telling specific client stories. I don't mean that, but just in general, with empty nesters, aside from, I'd say in addition to biological changes of menopause and other elements, empty nesters have more time available. They often have more resources available. What are some of the barriers that empty nesters are trying to work through when they're working through someone like you.

Stephanie Flood  28:43  
I think that a lot of empty nesters are coming to me with those, some of those physical challenges. Quite honestly, they know that they would like to be intimate. They sometimes feel a lot of shame in like, using medications. Men, in particular, having to use medication to help things get going. And then, like, how do I, by the way, babe, like, I took this thing. So is it okay? We like things in like, 20 minutes from now? Like, yeah, and that again, like, you're, you're, you're setting yourself up for some awkwardness, right? So when we feel like it might be awkward, then we're gonna pull away. So when you're both on the same page, about, like, hey, you know, I'm gonna need a lot more warm up now that I'm an older lady. Like, I need you to be using lubrication. I need you to do a lot more touching and kissing before we get to the main event. And for men, like, just being really honest, Hey babe, like, you know, I have to say it's medication. It has nothing to do with you. It's not that I am not attracted to you. It's just that the blood flow is not working the way it once was. I think a lot of women actually get sort of sad. Either self conscious that their male partner has to use a medication. That's just not the case. It has nothing to do with attractiveness whatsoever. It just has to do with blood flow. And so when you can start to again, normalize those conversations and be really gentle with each other, because you know, this is part of aging. And, you know, I laugh about it for sure. Like, aging sucks. Like, there's all kinds of things you're like, What the heck is that like? I think that, yeah, those are, those are the that is probably the main one is just kind of getting over the embarrassment of like, stuff has changed, stuff has moved around. It does not work the same way that it once did. And you know, and when I look for older couples, I really talk about, well, what are the other things outside of penetrative sex that make you guys feel close and good? And there is all kinds of things that you guys can do to create intimacy that may have nothing to do with penetrative sex, if it's not working the way you guys wanted it to work,

Rick Denton  31:08  
that I'm glad you brought that up about, you know, like in a case like that, where if erectile dysfunction is a is a factor, that it's not about, you know, attractiveness, like You said that, I remember that earlier in our relationship, when it was, you know, Clancy might be just tapped out from the kids, and you having to explain to me, Look, it's not you. I'm not unattracted to you, Rick, it's just life has happened and the like. And so that's sort of that mirror equivalent in this phase of life, that it's realizing that, no, it's not about that my spouse doesn't necessarily care for me or is attracted to me, but rather, that's just life. That's just biology.

Clancy Denton  31:49  
Yeah, that was really good. I This has been a really good I really enjoyed this. Yeah, this one's fun. This one's gonna be good. This one's gonna be a good one. Yeah? And

Rick Denton  31:58  
so Steph, this is just a short little snippet. Anybody listening or viewing here clearly is going to want to know more where what are some resources that are available that folks can use to learn more about improving their intimacy and relationships? So

Stephanie Flood  32:14  
I have my own course. It's called a flood of love, and we really dive real deep into questions to ask and how to ask them. And you know, where you can kind of, like, really connect in ways that you might never had. It's really based upon, like, giving guidance about, like, well, these are questions that we may have never even asked each other, like, how to get back on track, how to, you know, really reconnect. And I would say that in terms of, like, other resources and things that I particularly love, anything to do with John Gottman is, by far and away like he's he's the best of the best, in my opinion, when it comes to teaching couples how to be a couple, he just has some really, really great advice and and just, you know, if you are on the fence about, like, well, you know, we're not really like, the house is not on fire, and go seek out a therapist. Like, you know, even if you just do a couple of sessions, you might get some really good insights and just some, like, oh, like, we could start working on this thing, and things get better really, really quickly. A good therapist will, for sure, start to get you right back on the right track.

Clancy Denton  33:36  
Love it, and we, we will obviously put your links and everything. But where can people reach out to you just verbally? So if someone's listening, they can hear it,

Stephanie Flood  33:46  
a flood of love.com.

Clancy Denton  33:49  
Okay, great,

Rick Denton  33:50  
yeah, we'll get all that in the show notes. Stephanie, this was an absolute delight. I I don't think we'll keep the camera on, but I can only imagine the conversation and conversations that Clancy and I are going to have the rest of the day inspired by this conversation because of what we've learned from you, and I know that our listeners and our viewers are going to feel the exact same way.

Clancy Denton  34:10  
Yes, thank you so much.

Stephanie Flood  34:13  
Yeah, yes, thank you. I love chatting with you guys. This was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. It

Rick Denton  34:18  
will definitely go down as one of the most fun episodes of the loud quiet, including the empty nest you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai