Launching kids AND preparing empty nest parents the right way with Hanna Bankier E148

Clancy Denton (00:00)
Today on the Loud Quiet, launching kids and preparing emptiness parents the right way with Hannah Banker.

Rick Denton (00:06)
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Loud Quiet. You know, this season is when so many parents are about to send their kids off well to something new, whatever that next thing is for the kids, and we have the perfect guest for that stage of life.

Clancy Denton (00:22)
Yes, Hannah Banker is a coach, speaker, and proud Birdie Launcher. She helps moms navigate this season of launching their kids and themselves into what's next. She realized how much then this transition stirs the emotions, the identity shifts, the questions about who are we now? And she found herself being the go-to friend for navigating the season. That's how Birdie Launchers was born.

A place to help moms move through the grief, the relief, and ultimately the joy of launching. And we can't wait to talk to her about this. Hannah, welcome to the Loud Quiet.

Hanna Bankier (01:01)
Thank you so much for having me.

Rick Denton (01:04)
Hannah, birdie launcher. I mean the moment that we saw that, you can kind of get a vision of what it looks like, but it is clearly such a unique brand name. How did you come up with that name and what does it really mean for parents in this stage of life?

Hanna Bankier (01:20)
Yeah. So, you know, when my oldest was about to launch, I really, as as Classy was saying, like I sat with it for a long time and figured out this concept that is the known is the empty nest. And I'm like, it's just not sitting right with me. And I did a little deep dive internally and said, Well, okay, why is it not sitting right with me? And one of the reasons is I don't know what happens for y'all, but for me, the mental image of an empty nest.

Something like shiveled out, maybe like a leftover feather, like it just doesn't feel yummy. And I want my home to feel warm and yummy and welcoming regardless of how many kids or any kids live in the house. And then I also realized that this major transition in our lives as parents for our children actually start long before the nest has emptied. Ideally it starts when you're

all in the same nest as you start shifting all these relationships and and identities. And then thirdly, how is the nest empty if I'm still in it? Yeah.

Rick Denton (02:29)
Absolutely.

Hanna Bankier (02:30)
So for me as a mom, as a feminist, I was like, can we stop like just disregarding women, midlife women, right? Post reproductive age as if we don't have value and we're not even visible in our own homes. So with all of that, I was like, no, there's gotta be a better way. So how do we take that sense of loss for cosme that is also there, right? That's as a loss of identity and a loss and turn it into a launch.

And what we're telling our kids is like, kiddo, there's a big world out there, you know, go get it. But it's equally a big world for us. So when I'm thinking about launching our birdies, help them spread our wings, we also get to do that for ourselves. So that, all of those factors became birdie launcher.

Rick Denton (03:17)
I like that. And I and I like that. I I n actually never thought and we've certainly embraced the emptiness brand. It it it resonates with the the listeners and they understand it, but that idea of how can it be empty if I'm still there? I've never thought about that.

Clancy Denton (03:31)
Well, the word empty has such a negative connotation. And you know, we yes, have it in our title, but our whole brand is about, you know, thriving in the emptiness. But yes, it is such a horrible name for that next stage of life because you don't empty

Hanna Bankier (03:50)
Don't feel very in

Clancy Denton (03:51)
no, not at all. And so yes, and you know, you talk about yes, it does. It starts well before those kids do leave your nest. You know

I feel like we take more time planning a two week trip to Europe than we do planning for that next phase of life. So what does it look like when you do bird launching well?

Hanna Bankier (04:17)
Yeah, you're so right. I think the statistic says that only seven percent of parents actually plan for this, made your life transition. And it's one of those that I really think anything worth doing is worth doing well, right? So it requires our time, our attention and our proactivity.

So, what does it look like to do it well? In my book, it looks like a name it to tame it, which is always what we say in coaching, right? You can't address something that you haven't identified. So just being aware that this is a big transition, and you might not be prepared for all that it brings up in you and your child, and if you're still you know partnered with somebody, like there's a lot of dynamics that's gonna shift. So then I want people to be able to do it with.

Greater ease and grace and space. I was thinking about that empty, right? How words really shift our meaning and our experience of things. So if we weren't ta talking about it as an emptiness, but maybe as a spacious nest, it opens up all sorts of possibilities. So here's the things that people can do to do it really, really well. They can recognize that it is happening.

They can start having these conversations and shifting their parenting. This is a big mistake that most parents are just not getting to, is that they're still parenting their now emerging young adults about to leave the nest for wherever they're going as if they're still thirteen. And that is not successful. One another big mistake that people are making is that they are just sort of suffering in silence and thinking as it's just how it is, you know.

And yes, we want our kids to be able to launch, right? That score, we did it. We have we have raised these munchkins to be able to be ready to leave. That's amazing. But it doesn't have to be a lonely experience. Yeah. And I think we are so often making it a lonely experience because we don't really have that village anymore. We don't aren't connected with all these people. So evolving your parenting, planning, being proactive.

Going at it with in community, working with somebody to have that roadmap, it just makes it so much easier. And then you feel confident and competent. And that's what I want for the mummas I work with because ultimately none of us have done this before. Yeah. So even if you launched one or two or three, like you have never launched

This particular munchkin before. And each munchkin is different. And your relationship with said munchkin is different. And where you are, whether you're launching your first or your last, your experience is gonna be vastly different. So coming together, getting that roadmap, coming for you know the wisdom, the insights, and the practical steps that Birdie Launcher offers is a great way to feel like, okay, I got this.

Clancy Denton (07:16)
I love that you're focused on this side of it because we were just having a conversation earlier today about how many parents are just focused on the college, getting them into the college part of it and don't even think about this side, you know, that that relationship side of it. And I love that that's what you are focused on.

Rick Denton (07:39)
It's that so much energy and so much planning and so much focus is put on that for parents of kids who are intending to move to college. And even those that aren't going to college, there's still the plan, the focus, the the driving towards that and all that is there. Well sometimes this empty nest stuff falls to the wayside like we're talking about.

I do wonder though, Hannah, 'cause when you and I or you and we were talking before, you described yourself as a reflector, a thinker, a planner. Like that those those words, well, those all lean into that idea of developing that plan and forethought. Well, not everybody's got that sort of innate personality. So what do you say to those who don't have that in their core nature to be that reflector and that planner type of person?

Hanna Bankier (08:25)
You're absolutely right, right? I was in television, so I was producing a lot of year and then it's all about foresight. And for a while I was even counting seconds for a living. Very always on time. so you're absolutely right. it's not something that we usually spend a lot of time on proactively. And partly of that is I think it is so much easier to focus on the practical.

Right, you can obsess about getting the right shower caddy for the dorm room.

Clancy Denton (08:58)
yes.

Rick Denton (09:00)
You were looking at our lives a few years ago?

Hanna Bankier (09:04)
And ultimately the right shower caddy is not gonna make or break anything. Right. But that is it's easy. We have the dorm shopping list, we can check off the boxes, we feel that we're very productive, we're we're doing all the things. And that is what this culture is focused on. Checklist, being able to like mark things off and just feel productive in that space. And we're not at all as equipped to deal with the relational.

So when we don't feel confident and competent there, that's when we skip over it. And again, none of us have ever done this before. So going to, you know, if you were to pick up, you know, pickleball or tennis, you will get a coach. You would talk to people who have done it ahead of you, or before you, and you would lean front on that and you would gather all those resources. And this is very much the same thing. This is the biggest parenting transition that you've ever gone through.

Since that little bundle of joy came into your arms that fourth time, however, they came into your arms. And then there was mommy and me and music together, and there was mommy's group and parenting group, and there was all these books, and the entire village came with wanted or unwanted advice. And there's like you sleep through them like this, or you don't do it like that. But there was that.

Big enthusiasm and intention and energy coming your way, and you were driving a lot of that because you wanted to be the best parent you could possibly could be. And now we need that same thing. So if that's not part of your thought process yet, that's you know, come to me and I will guide you. And now we're actually talking about it. And I think there this is midlife mamas, right? As Gen Xers, we are just talking a lot.

about things that have not been visible. We're just not the s suffering and silence kind of generations, right? We're talking about menopause, we're talking about Birdie Launching, we're talking about these things because it hugely and greatly impacts us.

Rick Denton (11:05)
I was thinking back to something you said where you talked about the checklist and combining that with what you just said about kind of the Gen X generation, both both the the moms and the dads, we're we're more involved, we're more willing to discuss the emotions, we're more willing to get into that. I know that me, and and Clancy's probably gonna laugh, I love my checklists. I love my spreadsheets. I love we were just today talking about what are the to-do lists that we need to finish before this episode, right?

And it's so satisfying and and i it allows you to move forward like you described, but it's the other stuff that's kind of scary. Like that's the stuff that creates a lot of worry is not knowing that and we're willing to talk about it, but there's a lot of worry that comes.

Clancy Denton (11:51)
Well, and I think you hit it on the head that our group, you know, when we were having our children, that's when the books really started to come out and there were books about everything. And now that we are at the age of the empty nest, there wasn't a lot. And so now we're starting to see we're doing these podcasts. You're starting programs that yes, we are we're we're searching for that information. And so our age group

is starting to put it out there. And yes, the worry as the mom, you know, that worry is there. So how do you help these moms ease their worry? And what are some of the other emotions that

Hanna Bankier (12:35)
Normally.

Clancy Denton (12:36)
in this in this phase that you're helping these moms get through?

Hanna Bankier (12:41)
You're so right, Class. See, I think what we're doing is that we are building the things that we need. Right? If it doesn't exist, but I need it and I know I'm not the only one needing it. So then we build it because that's there's a space here, right? Again, not empty, but a space. So as parents, as moms, we are wired to work.

So I'm not ever looking to say, just don't worry about it. Like that dismissing somebody's experience like that, not helpful, right? Like no woman ever has been like told by somebody to calm down and they're like, Okay, let me calm down. Not happening. So to what you're saying, Rick, it's like, yes, this the relational, the feelings, the worry, that's the scary stuff.

And when we don't feel confident, then we skim over it. We just don't want to go there. But it doesn't mean we can't put those things on the checklist, right? If that helps us get there. And what is the conversation I want to have with my child pre them leaving the nest? Okay, put it on the checklist. What is that? How do I do that? Well, download one of my conversation guides from my website. How do I so there's these ways and places. So

Number one, when I work with moms, I validate all the feelings. We're not dismissing them. The feelings are there because feelings are information. They're telling us that something is important and that we need to tend to it. And what comes up in this phase is all the feelings. It is the soup of emotion. We got all of it in there, right? There's the pride and the joy and the excitement.

Ready, they've graduated, they're gonna take these big steps, and we're so elated for them. And we're worried. Like, are they actually ready? You know, can they do these things? How do I now support them in the best possible way? How do I keep them close when they're far away? Right? My oldest went to college on the other side of the country, 3,000 miles away, three hours time zone difference.

How do I know that he's okay? How do I make sure that we have established what communication looks and feels like for us? That it's not just centered around him, we're actually co-creating a relationship of mutuality. Yeah. How do I sit with my worry? I usually say parenting is about 80% managing your own anxiety. Yeah.

And that holds true whether you have a temper tantrum two-year-old at the grocery store or a twenty-two-year-old temper tantrum kid, right? Like this is what we do. So how do we manage our own anxiety? How do we get better and more skilled at discerning what requires our time and attention and what are we working on letting go? And I say that as a recovering type A, right? Like I have been definitely a control freak. And a lot of it was for me just like.

That's not my job anymore. Okay. I need to show my kid that I trust their ability, their sensibility, their resilience. Cause if I come in and swoop in and fix everything for them, because I do have a 30-year head start and I have executive functioning for like half a village, right? I am not gonna serve them in the long run.

And that means I need to sit and deal with my anxiety when things are not getting done the way I wanted them or on my timeline or the way I would have done it. So there's a lot of that. So we sit with the whole soup of emotion. We sit with the grief.

Yeah. We're in a culture where we don't do grief particularly well, right? It's like, it's just how it is, you know, you know, that was so two weeks ago. Come on, pull yourself over the bootstraps and move on, chug on. And I'm again like, no, no, no. We're gonna validate all the feelings, we're gonna sit with it because when we don't tend to the grief, it's gonna come out sideways. Yeah. We might get resentful, we might get frustrated, we might actually turn into that old. I think all of us have

You know, somebody in our circle that we know who is that woman who is now that mom who just guilt trips their kids all the time and isn't feeling like they're needed. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophety. They don't want to spend time with me. It's like, no, they don't want to spend time with you because you're actually unpleasant to spend time with. So we don't want to do that. So we want to tend to the grief, like the tears tell us a story. It tells us it's important. We want to deal with the worry. We wanna

Be elated and proud and joyful and all of it and just be able to hold that big container 'cause it's there for a reason.

Clancy Denton (17:34)
You just had on another example we were talking about earlier today too.

Rick Denton (17:38)
Are you sure?

Hanna Bankier (17:39)
We don't have a camera in

our house. I am I I love that the the synergies here, because it means that this is what we're talking about, this is our experience, this is what we're worried about.

Rick Denton (17:57)
And that's that's exactly it is I think when a lot of us enter into this phase, we feel alone and yet God willing, every parent will go into this phase, so it's almost the least alone that someone can be, and yet we feel alone. There's got to be a lot of themes that you're hearing from parents that are the recurring themes. And then I'm also curious what are the themes and questions that parents ask you that surprise you or catch you off guard a little?

Hanna Bankier (18:26)
Ooh, I don't know. I think you've heard all of it by now. There's a lot

Rick Denton (18:30)
Surprise you the first time.

Hanna Bankier (18:32)
Well, I don't know if it surprised me, but I think recognizing a theme definitely is this big worry and I think it often shows up differently from moms and dads, but is will I be needed?

Clancy Denton (18:46)
Hm,

yeah.

Hanna Bankier (18:49)
So for many of us, right, if we have, you know, say we've been hands-on, full mental load parenting for a couple of good decades, right? Might mine are three years apart. So about twenty, twenty-one years. That was like the full blown focus. And it becomes so much of our identities. And this is what we do. And you know, I'm a Mm-hmm. Right? And there's a pride in that. There's like and also like I have

accomplish things you did not even know was possible because you're a mom. And and then the kids leave. Mm-hmm. So what does that do to my identity? Yeah. And it's not like you're not gonna be a mom. You're always gonna be a mom. But that mom role in that identity shifts and a big worry is if I'm i am I not gonna be needed.

And for all the kids heading off to college, let me just reassure all the parents, college does not parent.

Rick Denton (19:47)
No.

Hanna Bankier (19:48)
No. So you will be needed, I guarantee you. But it will look and feel different. So if we're not moving, right, evolving as our kids are updating and upgrading their operating systems and becoming these young adults, we need to do the same.

Clancy Denton (20:06)
So how do you start? Okay, you said you, you know, you need to start cultivating that relationship, you know, when they're in high school, as they're becoming, you know, young adults, that relationship is starting to change. So what are some things that you can do that, you know, that to change and cultivate that relationship into how it's going to, you know, change into this different relationship so that you make sure that it is going to

continue and that, you know, you are still going to be needed in those later years.

Hanna Bankier (20:40)
Yeah, such a good question, right? Because when your kids are not at home and something happens, you want to be that first phone call that they make should anything go wrong. So that means mutuality, it means trust. So what I recommend people do is sort of junior year, senior year in high school, maybe that's summer, between those two years, is really starting identifying which are the different relationships that's gonna change.

And then how do I want to tend to them? So you have obvious the obvious relationship with your soon to be flown bird. That is a big one. Then you have if you're partnered, right? Are we still romantically connected or are we just co-parenting this organization called our family? And do I actually still want to be with you if we don't have the kids as the glue? And then if there are any younger siblings in the house.

They might have been very comfortable living in the shield of their older sibling and might not at all be particularly interested that the spotlight of parenting is now gonna come down extra hard on them or extra sharp on them because the shield is disappearing and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I didn't ask for any of this. So with a with a student to be flown bird, what I recommend is that you have a parenting conversation with them. So you invite them

And the way I did it with my kiddos was like, Hey, I'm gonna give you a gift. And they light up and I was like, No, no, it's not an iPad, it's not a new computer. It's a relational gift. Because when we recognize that when the kids leave for the first time in their lives, they will have agency over their relationship with you as a parent in a way that they've never had before.

Right. When you live in the same house, you have dinner together, you see them, you know, for breakfast, you you have these touch points, you see what's going on. And when they're no longer here, how do you create that mutuality, that connected relationship? So what I have is a script where you that helps you guide, because again, you haven't done this before, so it helps to have some guidance of rewriting your job description as a parent together with your kid.

Mm. For me it was a big one was starting handing over adulting. You know, like, no, I don't make you dentist appointments anymore. No, I am not calling it.

Clancy Denton (23:08)
That's a big one.

Rick Denton (23:11)
Yeah.

Hanna Bankier (23:13)
I actually live in your house, you just don't know it. So all of these things that that is I want you to be a fully formed world citizen as my child. So that means you need to learn how to, you know, clean up, communicate well, cook, you know, we have some basic stuff. Dance if you're in my household, because I like people that dance. So there's d these different things that come with like what are the things that are now gonna be yours?

And the beauty when we do this, when we're all still in that same nest, is when they are learning to flex their muscles and they're gonna fall on their faces a few times. You're there. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be something you're trying to tend to three states away. So learning to do it, and it's also an amazingly good flex for you, if you're like me.

Working on that recovering type A and stepping away and counting to 10 and doing a little mini meditation when it's not happening the way I want it to happen or the way I would do it. So we have a few different things, right? Like, okay, so I'm gonna shift my parenting because you're gonna step up and become this emerging adult. I am always gonna be your mom, so that's not shifting. We're always gonna have that hierarchy, if you will.

But it's gonna shift. So how do we wanna co-create that relationship together? Am I gonna be your advisor? Am I gonna be your consultant? Am I gonna be your coach? Well my kids say, no, no, you're coaching for a living. We don't want that version of you. Am I gonna be your mentor? Yes. So in our family I went from mom to mama mentor.

Which means that we redid our rewrote my job description. And then that means when I overstep, 'cause of course that happens, I still flexing these muscles, my kids have a really easy way to say, Mom, I don't think that's part of your job description anymore. And it allows me to shift in the moment is yeah, thank you for the reminder. Let me try again. So that's a

Big big one and it helps tremendously 'cause you lay sort of the foundational groundwork for your relationship with these amazing humans for the next, I don't know, thirty, forty years, however long you decide you're gonna be on this earth.

Rick Denton (25:51)
The the idea of co creating and doing it in such a defined way.

Well, I find novel just i in and of itself. I can see how that would be effective though, because just like you said, even as the parent, if I overstep, the kid can pull out the job description and say, y you are no longer following your job description. I see how that works with the the kid that's launching. You mentioned other relationships though. You mentioned the younger siblings. You mentioned the partner if there is a partner there in the relationship. How are those relationships evolving and how do you guide folks in this launching phase?

To navigate those similar conversations with those other relationships.

Hanna Bankier (26:33)
Yes. Because it's all a system, right? For a family system, all the social dynamics are feeding off of each other, moving and grooving together. So super crucial to tend to the whole system. So with your partner, if you're a romantic partner, what we do know is that the graying divorce, this is when the kids are leaving, the chances of you getting a divorce increases by forty percent in this phase of life.

So maybe the relationship has run its course. You picked the best co-parent you could for when you were gonna be hands-on parents and now you are evolving in different ways and choosing to do different things and you want different things in life. No harm, no foul. Let's just recognize that if that is the case. However, if you want to spend more time with this beloved person of yours, then how are you gonna do that again with intention?

Because now a lot of the glue, it whether all the kids have left or the one and only has left or however many you are launching is no longer there. How do you have a conversation not talking about the kiddos? What are you doing on a Saturday morning when you're not driving to a meet or a game or a recital? Uh-uh. What are you doing, right? So again, having just like, okay.

Let's renew our vows. Let's co-create our next phase of our relationship the way that we want it to look and feel like in this phase of life. Do we want to go back 25 years and go club hubbing, come home at 3 a.m.? Maybe.

Clancy Denton (28:14)
Yeah.

Hanna Bankier (28:15)
But what other pieces of joy and connection? So I am huge on rituals. So I like really enjoy co-creating rituals with my loved ones.

how do we greet each other? How do we say goodnight? How do we share our appreciation? How do we create our own little mini bucket list that doesn't have to be, you know, a two week trek in in Nepal? But like let's go to a neighboring cafe, let's walk here, let's do this thing. How do we want to spend our time and our resources? Yeah. Cause, you know, if your kids go to college, college is spending. But in the day today

You're all of a sudden don't need a fridge full of food the same way you did when you have, you know, three soccer players living in the house. So what how do we do that? What are the things? What are our date nights? What are us? How do we tend to our romantic, connected relationship? I think in the States or in the Western world in general, right? It's like the happy ending. It's like you the big thing is they they get married and then they live happily ever after. And no no no no no.

Like getting married is the easy part. Working continuously with time, intention, focus, sometimes financial resources. Like this might be a great time to see a couples therapist. And just like what what are we? This might be a great time to go on a couples retreat to just like assess where we are. Esther Perel, I don't know if she's known to you, but she is, you know, a world renowned couples therapist. And she said she has married

Three times to the same man. huh. It's always her husband Jack. But for each of these different phases of life, you get to recreate and reimagine what it is we want it to look and feel like. Yeah. So that's the partnered. Then if we turn to other siblings in the house, having that conversation also.

as you can tell, I'm big on communication. I think that's the that's the root of like all happy, healthy relationships. It's a raw it's a strong communication ability. So with those kiddos, I would say, all right, your big sibling is leaving. How are you guys gonna continue and maintain a relationship? Are you close? Are you not close? Do you need any support, parental support to maintain that relationship? How does that feel in the house now?

Is dinner every night together as important? Do we want to shift different things? What is it that I how can I best support you in this transition? What's going on for you? Right? For every time your oldest does something, whether it start kindergarten or starting high school or leaving the house, there's so much focus on them and the little ones is like, hello.

I also started kindergarten. I was like, Yeah, yeah, but I as a parent, like I've done that now. So we're gonna move on. So what are the places and spaces where we can tend to it? And just having these conversations more than once and in a way that doesn't feel threatening. Yeah.

Clancy Denton (31:28)
love that. I lo I I've never really even thought about the younger sibling, you know.

Rick Denton (31:34)
We kinda w you know what we did? We f fell into it without intention. Yeah.

Clancy Denton (31:39)
And I think also having different sexes made it makes a difference. And they are

Rick Denton (31:45)
So dramatically different that that even without our direct intention well our our kid helped us understand that things would be different.

Clancy Denton (31:53)
It was great. I really think, Hannah, you could be like our third co host every because because you've hit on so many changes.

Rick Denton (32:01)
A little

stool right here.

Clancy Denton (32:04)
Yeah. I I mean each week on our podcast. But yeah, I love it. So Hannah, tell everyone where they can find you and what you have to offer and all of that.

Hanna Bankier (32:15)
Yes,

I'd love to share. So my website is a great place to start. It's birdie with a Y. So B-I-R-D ylauncher.com. And if you go to the tab with parental resources and guides, you can download a bunch of things. Follow me on Instagram, birdelauncher.com. birdie launcher is my handle. And then if you want to sign up for the newsletter, you get weekly little

guidance and reminders and cheering on in this wild ride called parenting. And I work with groups, I work with the mamas individually as well, do a bunch of workshops, go out either in person or online to do workshops for high schools, because that's the the yummy spot. When you start in when your kids still in high school, you're ahead of the vast majority. I'm not gonna say it's too late if you get to it after, but that is the sweet spot.

And this is true whether you're launching your first, your last, or your only.

Rick Denton (33:13)
Man, I love that. I love the the themes I heard several themes in there. One is get ahead of it, cheer each other on, be a part of something full of encouragement. Hannah, that has been an absolute delight to to learn today. I know Clainty and I have learned a little bit. We're kinda worried that you got a camera in our house, but we'll we'll look into that later. Hannah, we so appreciate you being with us today on the Loud Quiet.

Hanna Bankier (33:37)
Thank you so much, both Rick and Clancy, for having me. I love talking about these things, and it's one of my missions in life to help make it easier and with more space and grace for all the parents going through this major life transition.